Episode 4:
AMP for Email & WhatsApp with Nicholas Einstein of Netcore Cloud

Scott Cohen: Hello. Welcome to that inbox army podcast. I’m your host, Scott Cohen. And with me as always is my cohost, Garin Hobbs. Hey, Garin.

How are you doing?

Garin Hobbs: Not bad. Thanks. Happy Friday, everybody.

Scott Cohen: Happy Friday. Yeah. We like to record on Fridays around here just to I don’t know. It’s a good way to blow off steam. Why not?

Alright. Today, we’re tackling 2 potential areas of opportunity for email marketers, AMP for email and, actually, WhatsApp. Both have been around for a while, 5 years for AMP. 15 I looked this up, like, when did WhatsApp start? 15 years ago is when WhatsApp started.

But neither has really found a foothold yet here in the states, each for their own variety of reasons. But as with any opportunity, I like to explore them and talk with folks much, much smarter than me about these topics. So joining us today is Nicholas Einstein, vice president of product marketing at Netcore Cloud. Nick, welcome to the podcast.

Nicholas Einstein: It is a pleasure to be here, Scott, Garin. Thanks for having me.

Scott Cohen: Absolutely. Before we get too deep into the weeds, I love to learn about people’s journeys. And we’ve met, I don’t know how many iterations of our lives ago. Sure. But and how they ended up where they are.

Tell us how you tell us about your journey and how you’re now at Netcore.

Nicholas Einstein: So I’ve had a a long journey in email specifically. Kicked it off kind of as a practitioner really at RealNetworks, back in the days when people had a a real player on on when there’s a real player on on everyone’s machine. Oh my god. Yeah. We we remember this.

The audience might not be so tuned in. But but, I ran email and, CRM back at RealNetworks back in the day. And from there, developed a love for the for the channel there. And, from there, worked at several vendors doing email strategy. I led deliverability teams and and and other teams.

I was an analyst for 5 years with David Daniels at the relevancy group covering marketing technology, data management, email, deep in in the weeds on email. And so, and from there, was at Cheetah Digital for a little bit before joining Netcore, to run, product marketing and analytics relations. So, yeah, a pretty, a pretty deep, 20 year journey through, through, yeah, the from practitioner, analyst, vendor in email.

Scott Cohen: You you could say you’ve seen some things I don’t know. With the big wide eyes. Yeah. Yeah. May maybe we’ll do an after hours chat, and we can get some of those stories.

But alright. Let’s jump into AMP. AMP, as Bernadette said, been around 5 years, still kind of misunderstood. Let can you give us

Garin Hobbs: I do.

Scott Cohen: A sort of AMP for email 101?

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. I think it’s it’s a little misunderstood. It I think AMP, in general, has a bad rap. I think AMP, you know, originally developed by Google to help them load search pages better and faster, and it kind of was, hemmed and hawed with and and got some some adoption and and now much less so, really not supported much in terms of traditional AMP on the web. AMP for email at that same time, the the teams internally at Google, the the office teams, the G Suite teams, and and things began using it pretty extensively internally and, using it, with us.

I think many of the, of us have probably engaged with an AMP enabled email in their Gmail responding to, like, a g doc or a calendar invite or something where you’re taking an action in the message, and it’s actually you’re actually taking the action. And and for many of those, it’s kind of, it’s kind of unconscious. The but there are some headwinds, and and and it’s it’s, enables some amazing use cases in in AMP for email. Really, truly app web experiences in the inbox, but, it has had a rocky a rocky, road, has not seen, significant adoption in North America. That said, some significant adoption happening, globally, where where some of the headwinds aren’t aren’t, for for, the standard aren’t blowing quite as as strongly.

So so it it, it has had, yeah, a a little bit of a rocky road. Still not seeing some, you know, widespread adoption in in in the North American market, but, yeah, seeing some amazing stuff in in Asia and beyond.

Garin Hobbs: Yeah. I love the words you just used, headwinds. Right? I feel that’s incredibly apt. In fact, our, mutual friend, Chad White, over to Oracle recently wrote what I found to be a very excellent and helpful article about the present and future of AMP.

And he also used the word headwinds when kinda describing some of the challenges facing facing the standard. Right? First off, unique language, unique coding language, Mindpart, ESP support, inbox provider support are kind of primary among them. Walk us through some of these headwinds and Yeah. Whether or not you see the winds changing.

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. And it was a good it was a good piece by Chad. I I was pleased when you guys brought it up. I read it myself, obviously. And, and I think he referenced a webinar that we had done together for the ESPC ESPCC or on the topic.

But, the sender, a lot of senders have supported it for a long time. Many of the big ESPs in the space do support sending sending AMP for email, including many of the biggies. Chad’s does not, but but many of the other ones do. But they haven’t really including one of my former employers. But they haven’t really supported it.

They you know, it’s another MIME type to your point. And so they’ve had a window to put the MIME type in, but not really, supported it with training enablement, and and and education because it it is a totally different paradigm. Right? When when you’re sending an an AMP enabled interactive message, oftentimes, you are, yeah, you’re not looking for a click through. Your goal is not generating a click through to your landing page.

It bring in that landing page and or the the shopping experience or the the browsing experience right into the message itself. And so the the paradigm completely shifts. So it it requires more than just opening up another window to cut and paste your MIME type in. It really requires some enablement, and and I don’t not a lot of that has happened in the industry. Like, not a lot of people have hopped on the the amp bandwagon.

And and many initially by just supporting the MIME type to but not, you know, really enabling it. And and I think a lot of that, it it’s, and the mailbox provider part you mentioned, it’s not it’s supported by Gmail, Yahoo, some other kind of fringe support, mailbox providers, but not by Apple. And and so in markets, developing markets, in in India, a APAC, a lot of big markets, where where Google is dominant, Gmail, Android are really the the go to. Addressability is huge. And so you’re you’re you’re getting a big piece of your audience when you’re sending an an AMP enabled message.

In other markets, it’s less so because of that Apple, that lack of Apple support. But but I tell you, even you know, it’s it’s more this from my perspective, the headwinds are more this the sender, just really enabling it with with editors and templates and things to to to really, you know, enable brands and marketers to to launch it. Yeah. Make it part of it.

Scott Cohen: Is it is it is it kind of a chicken in the egg thing, though? Like, Apple’s not addressing it so because it is 50 plus percent of our market here in the states, in terms of I don’t think Apple Mail itself is that big. But, you know, just in general, it’s such a large piece of it that, like, why are the ESPs gonna support it if Apple isn’t gonna support it? But then Apple’s probably not gonna support it if the ESPs don’t support it. But what what is I mean, why isn’t Apple getting on board?

And maybe this is more of an opinion than, you know, base. We all have our theories about Apple, but I’m curious as, like, why why why aren’t the inboxes embracing this?

Nicholas Einstein: So so I would bet that a lot of the theories that you you guys hold around Apple for a lot of other, you know, tangential, reasons hold true here too. Like like, you know, Apple does likes to do their own thing, and they they don’t generally you know, AMP is is now an open source standard, run by by, you know, an open source group. Google kind of, you know, gave it away. But, you know, Apple is slow to often doesn’t choose to to they often choose to go their own way. A, I think the the flip side too is I’m not sure the the other big headwind is just market, demand.

You know? And you don’t it not a lot. There isn’t a ton of awareness out there in the space for around AMP for email. Every time when I go talk to to, you know, prospects and and and, speak at conferences, it’s often do roundtables. It’s often the first time people have consciously experienced some of this stuff, and and they’re often wowed.

But there hasn’t been a a huge pull from big brands to say, hey. You know, I need it. I I think that’s largely due to kind of awareness. And and in this market, some of that driven by by people like, people like us who who, maybe haven’t seen, you know, haven’t seen it as a as a big opportunity. But, you know, that’s not the case in in other markets.

And and I think even in this market, when you really break it down, if, you know, if you can achieve some of these really spectacular use cases with your with a piece of your audience, you know, could that be could that be meaningful?

Garin Hobbs: Yeah. And now we get back to that aspect of chicken and egg again. Right? Is the demand low because the support is low, And is the support low because the demand is low? I tend to, defer to one of the greatest movies of all time, Field of Dreams, build it, and they will come.

Right? But at the end of that, you know, let’s let’s let’s dig a little deeper. I mean, is the juice really worth the squeeze? Right? Some very, very cool use cases as you mentioned.

Even a jaded, you know, email geek like myself is often blown away by some of the really inventive ways that AMP has been put to work. But it does seem to me that some of what AMP does can also be done, very artistically with HTML and CSS. Yep. But Yep. You know, leaving that overlap aside, much of the other use cases, the value of AMP seems to be in making email interactive, which, of course, then makes the message itself the engagement touch point.

Right? So what is the real value of that compared to the effort of getting such use cases off the ground?

Nicholas Einstein: Yep. Yep. And and, the value is, like, is, measurable and an enormous. It because what we’re really doing is reducing that friction from clicking through, that friction of a landing page, the friction of of, you know, the the shopper experience leaving the the inbox itself. And so by by, simps and depending on the use case, yeah, they could be amazing.

So simple use cases like, ratings and reviews. Oftentimes, ratings and reviews, you know, you’re getting people either who who really love it or really hate it. It’s you’re you’re gonna follow-up often with a with a post purchase. You know, give us a review. You know?

But if if you follow-up with that post purchase and give us that review and it’s right in the email and I don’t need to click through and I can click my 5 star and give it to you right then and there, the the metrics are go up ex exponentially. Like, your your, conversions on on simple things like that, ratings and reviews, 0 party data collection, asking a simple question just in the body of your message where where you don’t need to, direct anyone out of the the email experience. The those, sign up for a webinar. Some of these things go up astronomically when it can happen in the message itself. Some of the other ones, schedule an appointment, appointment bookings, flight reservations, a lot of these use cases where, if if you can catch a user with a message at a at the contextually relevant moment with a quality message, you can generate some conversions that you will not see if you happen to click them back through an app experience or others, depending on what those conversions are.

But but, yeah, the the juice can be really worth the squeeze depending how hard the squeeze is. And and getting back to my previous point, like, we’ve been making it really hard for people to squeeze for for years years by not giving them editors, not giving them templates, not giving them, yeah, the the expertise, the education, the the know how, to do it, and which is and it and it’s it’s a it’s a, you know, a a very it’s a new process, new QA process, new development process. It’s just a new way of doing it. And and, you know, email marketers, we know we get new can be new can be scary and tough sometimes. So so it’s, the the squeeze has been tough to date, and I think that’s really you’re getting at the crux of the issue.

The the juice can be sweet, but the squeeze has been tough to date for for many people.

Garin Hobbs: So So it sounds like it’s really about reducing or it it sort of optimizing conversions by reducing the friction, shortening that path to conversion, and more importantly, what I heard was maybe controlling the experience a bit more. Right? A customer clicks, leaves the email, now you all of a sudden you’re herding cats. Right?

Nicholas Einstein: You’re herding cats. And and, you know, we all know. We got we got marketing funnels. We we see. You know, you you get to a landing page.

You got certain people click on the email. Not everyone’s converting on the landing page. When you can bring that landing page right into the email, you literally remove a step in that funnel, and and the numbers, yeah. Yeah. It it’s, it’s it could be amazing for for, again, some of those use cases.

Totally.

Scott Cohen: I’m gonna ask a nerd question here because we kinda talked about successes already. But have you done a head to head where you take the audience that is theoretically AMP capable and done, like, a half and half. What you talk about, like, it’s measurable, better. Like, what does you don’t have to name the company, but maybe give a couple examples. It was, like, 85% more, like, people people if I’m gonna go to if I’m gonna tell my client, hey.

Go ask your team to let us do AMP for you. Right. You know, what what what is the

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. And and and

Scott Cohen: What’s that juice look like?

Nicholas Einstein: For for sure. And and with without kind of, yeah, promoting Netcore too much, I will tell you over the, media post, email awards. Are they called the email insider award? They’re actually there’s there are 3 of them on the shelf back there. I but the the media post awards.

Scott Cohen: Did you steal them? Did you didn’t mean it. You stole them.

Nicholas Einstein: I did not. I didn’t have it. It’s like 2 years in a row, best interactive campaign won by Netcore for for 2 different, brands doing 2 different campaigns. But, both 0 party data collection, actually, where they’re driving you know, they’re they’re looking for an incremental piece of data that they don’t have to to drive further personalization and segmentation efforts. And each one, well, actually, one of them this year was a gold calculator where people were putting in how much gold they have at the moment and what they could get at the exchange rate.

It was a calculator to to change goals. But right in the email itself, and then you you figure out your rate, and you could schedule an appointment and go make it happen. And and the other one was 0 party data collection. But, like, 10 x, response rate over those who have to who who get a generic email and click through. And and part of it really is, you know, people, you know, you one needs to work hard in the inbox today to to send a good message.

Right? Like, the inbox is a competitive spot. You gotta send a good message, and, if and people’s minds are rarely blown when you’re, you know, with when you’re when they receive a message. If you can, yeah, flip the paradigm a little bit, not only, does that conversion s ten x is is what we see in some. And and and, for yeah.

That’s that’s at the high end. But the, you can also change people’s whole ex expectation of your program. You know? If if if I’m going to my email every day and I’m getting a a a quiz and I’m getting a gamified experience, and I’m getting an interactive experience. It’s it’s a different, you know, I’m paying more attention to those messages.

If I can search the product catalog, you know, I’m I’m paying more attention to those messages, and and, you know, we see just rates overall going up as a result of of sending better, more engaging interactive messages.

Garin Hobbs: Yeah. In a world where marketers and strategists are just scrapping to get, you know, 1, 2, 3, 5 percent increase, I’d imagine that that something like 10 x is is is pretty darn attractive. Right?

Nicholas Einstein: It’s crazy. It’s but it it again, in this market, we temper that by saying, okay. If if you if how big is your Gmail and Yahoo audience? Because they’re the addressable audience for this. And then what percentage of them are gonna open it on their Apple device, on their on their iPhone?

Because if if they’re app opening it on their Apple device on their iPhone and they’re going through the native Gmail client or Yahoo client, we’re good because they’ll see the message. If they’re on the Apple Mail client, they’re not gonna see it. So so there’s a little bit of a you have to whittle that down. But if you’re going 10 x on, you know, on 30% of your audience, what or or twin even 20 you know, whatever. What percent?

That’s a that’s gonna be meaningful number. Good juice. That’s what I’m trying to good juice.

Garin Hobbs: So keeping in the same topic, I feel like people can sometimes conflate what AMP does, compared to dynamic content platforms like Zimbula, Movable Ink, LiveClicker. How does AMP compare to those costed services?

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. And and, it’s it’s a there’s a there is a it’s a good question. I think, AMP, some use cases, there there could be a lot of overlap. Like, with with AMP, the the sky’s the limit. You you can really do almost anything you can do on a web page or or in an app.

And so you you can accomplish many of the same use cases you would one would accomplish in in some of those other, platforms. The addressability obviously is different. And so when when one is sending, an AMP enabled message, it’s it’s another MIME type. You’re sending an e HTML message. You’re sending the AMP message.

They’re both going out. You’re sending a text only message if if you’re doing that, but they’re they’re going out. And, at the you know, the the recipient is is, determining which version is shown. And so if a client doesn’t accept the app message, they’re gonna get the fallback, HTML message. And in many cases, those messages as part of a cogent email marketing strategy using AMP would include something like some of those other dynamic elements, like Movable Ink, Live Picker, and and men yeah.

Many of those others. Where where the the main difference is the the, yeah, total, the guardrails come off with AMP. Again, we we can do product catalog searches. We can do, yeah, add to cart, in the cart, cart manipulation, you know, go to checkout. Often in North America, you you wanna check out on the checkout page, not in the email.

But you can do a lot a lot kind of deeper stuff in AMP. But, in many in many kind of, I would say, like, a sophisticated program, those technologies would be working symbiotically, to drive just better interactive, yeah, content across all recipients. So so there’s yeah. Was that a good answer? Did I get did I get to that?

Garin Hobbs: That No. I I think my takeaway from there is rather than look at them as necessarily competitive entities, look at them as handmaidens kind of on the same journey.

Nicholas Einstein: I think that’s I think that’s the I think that’s the way to look at it. And and, again, yeah, I think there is some overlap in in use cases. You know? You could do a countdown timer in a bunch of different spots, and you can do some live, you know, loading a live content in AMP or or in some of those others. But, yeah, I think they they work together very well.

Scott Cohen: I’m gonna I wanna ask a little bit about more about the MIME type. So just being in the weeds as long as I have been until the last couple of years. Are you designing 2 versions of an email? Like, I know in some cases, like, I was talking to a mutual friend of the show, Ryan Phelan, that he just did one an AMP email with one of his clients. He talked about it as this really cool envelope that opened up to this whole huge thing.

And I said, well, what is what is the backup look like? He said it’s just the full email. Right? But when you’re talking about things like the cart experience happening inside the email, you know, those sort of actions, like, what does it just default to a link? Like, how how does it work?

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. And and and it’s it’s, I think it works differently for depending on different use cases. In if if you want, for instance, the ratings and review, you could if you’re sending a message, you know, hey. Post purchase email, thanks for ratings and review. That you are either the the fallback message is just the link to, you know, please give us the review.

You fall back to the and the AMP version has so it is a it is a different version.

Scott Cohen: Okay.

Nicholas Einstein: When when you’re loading it in, you’re loading in your your HTML version, and then you click in over a tab and and going in and and loading your AMP version. But in practicality, most a lot of clients just, or a lot of senders will take their HTML version, and then augment it through an editor with it by, you know, adding an an an we call amplets, little pieces of functionality like a a a rating or review, a 0 party data collection, something in the head or something in the footer, and interact, you know, live weather, chat with an agent, you know, some of that kind of interactive, chat, some of that stuff which doesn’t necessarily impact the big message, or, you know, the formatting of the overall message. So so oftentimes, people start with the HTML message and then put it in an editor and make it an AMP message.

Garin Hobbs: You said amplets, and now the irrepressible child in me cannot prevent my mind from conjuring little yellow minions running around as gamblers.

Nicholas Einstein: Nice. I like that. I like that.

Scott Cohen: Dave, Kevin. You know, I just love that that the minions are have just normal names.

Nicholas Einstein: I like it. Well, come on. We we love the minion.

Scott Cohen: We we do. Well, what a one more question on AMP before we move on to WhatsApp. But what you mentioned cart and all that. What security implications of taking checkout in email?

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. So How

Scott Cohen: does that

Nicholas Einstein: work? Often, it’s it’s, in, in instances and in regions where people are actually executing transactions in a message, they’re executing via a wallet, via a a, they’re not putting PII in the message itself. They’re not putting a credit card. They’re they’re executing via a,

Scott Cohen: a bank account. Apple Apple Pay, Google Pay, something like that. It wouldn’t be Apple Pay. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicholas Einstein: That’s exactly right. You know, we found in this in North America, a lot of stuff happens on the checkout page on the website. Like, there’s a there are a lot of tags. There’s a lot of things, and people actually want people to check out, the website in many cases. Mhmm.

And and so bringing the the shopping experience into the message, it works great for order, for an abandonment Mhmm. For for order path or or card abandonment messages. Mhmm. Thing where where carts where you wanna change or or or or, you know, there are other use case too. But, in in this market, people generally wanna send people back to the, page itself to actually do the checkout.

So the the security implications on the credit card and things are aren’t aren’t aren’t there. But people also talk smack in the industry about just AMP itself being a standard that’s that’s, secure. And and I think, and and whether yeah. Actions you take in the email, you know, are are being tracked. And I think that does go back to maybe, the original kind of Google, AMP kind of not for email, where where they were developing it for for web pages and and, people, yeah, having kind of concerns over there.

But I, it app, AMP for email is just as secure as anything you’re gonna do in your, on your website. Okay. In many instances, but but we, most commerce experiences still happen on the website.

Scott Cohen: All those people wanna get credit for something. Right? Yeah. It’s a it’s a whole thing.

Nicholas Einstein: You you know. You know.

Scott Cohen: Alright. Let’s hop over to WhatsApp. You know? It’s something I use, but Do you? Not a lot.

A little. A little. It’s only because I know people overseas.

Nicholas Einstein: But that’s that’s what I was gonna ask you next.

Scott Cohen: Yes. Yes. No. But I was saying yeah. When you travel and, like, I went to India last year, I literally, I was telling, one of my guys, you know, over there that we’re gonna talk about WhatsApp and how it’s not a big thing here, and his jaw just dropped.

And he said, if WhatsApp went down, like, India would shut down. It’s just it’s just a whole thing. So but it’s not something that’s caught on here. So let’s talk about WhatsApp and maybe I mean, it’s been around for 15 years.

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah.

Scott Cohen: But really from a marketing value perspective, I don’t think people have really picked up on it yet. So talk to me as if talk to me as if I was a noob, which by the way I am, and let’s talk WhatsApp.

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. Yeah. No. And and and, I’m you know, I had not did not have WhatsApp until I started working for a company based in India. Although I although a buddy of mine lives in Mexico, and he started I mean, I think it it is it is certainly a dominant platform internationally and and, to your to your point.

And so so a global presence is enormous, and so marketers who who are targeting, you know, consumers outside of North America have caught on to WhatsApp. And and it is a pretty compelling marketing experience. Here, I was actually amazed to see there was an article not I think it was in q 4. It was just before the holidays, in The New York Times, Sunday, New York Times, about kind of, Zuckerberg and and, and his intentions and things. And it called out, 18 to 35 year olds, Over 50% of 18 to 35 year olds in this country are on WhatsApp.

I don’t think any of us still fit into the category.

Scott Cohen: For no. No. Not for not for a decade.

Nicholas Einstein: But but but we’re in there. But, but over 50% 1835 currently in this in this country are in WhatsApp. And so, that’s a pretty compelling market already. Right? And and the and I we we I forecast it growing, the former analyst in me says.

You know, I it they’re they, it’s a it’s a pretty compelling platform. There’s a lot you can do in there. You can shop in there. And and so that’s another another you know, when when I think the similarities to to, AMP for email come in when when we’re just kinda bringing that, you know, conversion experience from the website into the, email, same thing happens in in WhatsApp. You can bring that that conversion experience right into the messaging experience.

Unlike most the way most people use marketing email, Mhmm. Most people do use when they’re using WhatsApp. Think about it in a two way exchange because you you engage with your audience there, and then you try to elicit a a chat, a two way exchange experience, which is is a pretty compelling, you know, a compelling thing when you bring it into especially from my perspective, when you bring it into, like, an an email an overall customer journey. So so you can you use email when you need to communicate with customers in a certain way, and then when you really wanna elicit some some near term real time back and forth engagement, WhatsApp steps in. And so so getting back to the new part.

With WhatsApp, you can send a message. You can chat with the respondent. The message can be highly interactive, and and, it can be gamified. You can you can do a lot more than just text. It’s it’s a it’s a graphic kind of platform.

And, people can engage with the product catalog. They can do you know, they can shop. And and in WhatsApp, they can, you know, convert pretty seamlessly in in channel. And so it’s, it it for for a big, yeah, big section of the world, it’s a really, really compelling, prospect.

Garin Hobbs: Awesome. Nick, leaving the AMP aside, just comparing channel to channel. Right? What does WhatsApp offer that SMS or maybe even more comparatively, MMS doesn’t? Right?

Is there a is there a cost advantage? Is there an experience advantage?

Nicholas Einstein: Not cost so all of that stuff is expensive. And that’s why as as I think email marketers, it’s good to to weave it in strategically with an overall program because you don’t want and I think a lot of us, you take your take on this too. But but, you know, SMS too can be can be pricey, and you wanna you wanna be

Garin Hobbs: Oh, yeah.

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. You wanna figure out how you wanna use it strategically and and, you know, you know, synergistically with the program. But, WhatsApp is is totally, totally graphic. So so, you know, you can you can do, you know, yep, high res images and, you know, and and video and, engaging, content. The the the chat aspect, which is, you know, again, highly, it it’s it’s a across the world, it’s it’s how a lot of folks spend most of their time sitting in that client.

And so the the, yeah, the interactive chat aspect, and then the conversion component. There’s you can shop. There there are WhatsApp shops. And so it’s it’s, yeah, richer media and and more, kind of, interactive and and engaging than than the kind of basic SMS, MMS stuff. Although yeah.

Not saying they don’t play a role too.

Scott Cohen: Yeah. Would you say, you know, I get this question probably twice a week, you know, is SMS worth it? And I go, it’s expensive, but the people that sign up for display a higher level of intent. Right? Because you’re saying, please interrupt me.

And and so would would WhatsApp be analogous to that in terms of level of intent? Like, you’re invite they’re the same deal. They’re inviting people to

Nicholas Einstein: I think it’s

Scott Cohen: bother them, essentially.

Nicholas Einstein: A 100%. 100%. And, yeah, high level of intent and often at, like, contextually relevant moments because you they’re wanting to go back and forth and you know, with you at that moment. So, yes, I would say it’s it’s similar, from that perspective for sure. Yep.

And and similar in that it’s it’s expensive comp compared to compared to email.

Scott Cohen: Well, most things are expensive compared to email.

Garin Hobbs: Yeah. So so what I’m hearing here is, you know, WhatsApp provides the opportunity for a full app or web like experience where primarily today SMS and MMS are still their value is is primarily as a messaging channel itself.

Nicholas Einstein: That’s you’re you’re yep. You’re hearing it. You’re hearing it correctly. And and and there’s value to that too. Right?

For sure. So let’s, you know,

Garin Hobbs: let’s build on this even more. What does r c or how does r c s fit into this whole picture? Rich communication services for those who aren’t familiar with yet another acronym in our industry.

Nicholas Einstein: No. Right. No. Right. And and and, another one where there’s much bigger adoption globally than there is in in North America at the moment, I think, due to same some of the same market factors, Apple headwind.

Scott Cohen: Although Apple did say this year, they might. I’ll believe it when I see it, but they’re claiming

Nicholas Einstein: But I would bet we would not be I bet that would not be a bullet point on this, podcast if they had not said that. Really? Right? Like, I think

Scott Cohen: Probably. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicholas Einstein: Yeah. Like, but, very similar to WhatsApp in the in the type of experiences that that one can offer. Obviously, RCS originally, Google, standard, so so which makes the the, the Apple, piece that much, yeah, more more interesting. And and, yeah, and maybe your your skepticism is yeah.

Scott Cohen: Well, the cynical side of Migos, like you said earlier, they wanna build it themselves. And maybe they went, we can’t do it, so let’s just take theirs. Why spend all the money to build it ourselves?

Nicholas Einstein: No. Right. But but, again, very similar points to the previous one. High intent, audiences, people who who really wanna engage, those, and and especially in in, APAC and some emerging markets where where the phone is is the primary method of of engagement, or in many instances, the only, you know, digital engagement that that’s they’re having with brands, and and offers many of the same benefits. Yeah.

Rich media experiences, interactivity, yeah, better measurement, than than traditional experiences, more granular measurement. And so it it, we see it as as a, yeah, a nice component to, you know, overall customer journey. And and in many cases, you know, we we see customers use it as, like, a next best channel mode, node in a a customer orchestration. Hey. Do they wanna hear from us, and which channel do they wanna hear from us?

And, leverage either, yeah, 1st or 0 party data to to, or, yeah, AI to get to that conclusion. But it’s, oftentimes a really compelling piece of the mix. I do potentially anticipate it getting more, yeah, play as it gets more, we see more support in this region.

Garin Hobbs: To me, that begs an interesting question. Right? I mean, it seems like every couple years, we see a new channel enter the chat. Right? Which means, potentially, our our audiences are getting segmented or diluted in across many more channels than we previously found them, which also challenges us to create content and messages that are relevant and appropriate for each of those channels.

If our addressable audience in each one of these channels starts becoming smaller simply because they’re now fragmented across others, You know, how should marketers think about, a, prioritizing and, b, you know, investing and in what order?

Nicholas Einstein: No. That’s a that’s a great question. And, you know, I I think there’s probably a lot of you know, there’s certainly a ton of overlap. And how do marketers think about, like, coordinating those in a way that is yeah. Creates kind of cogent experiences for consumers.

In many, you know, in many respects, you know, just pragmatically, some of these other channels are expensive. Right? And so, if if you can achieve goals through an engaged audience in email, that is a is a really primary goal. And if you can make those emails even better with with, interactivity or or or, you know, in channel conversions, even better. Those as those other channels mix in there, oftentimes, either customer preference.

You know? Where do you want us to communicate with you? You know? Prior you know, put the customer at the center of that decision, would be would be another, pointer there. But, in prioritizing, I think, comes down to either, yeah, best opportunity for return on investment, where where are we gonna get that conversion with with the least spend?

And in many cases, that’s gonna be prioritizing, a a a a more sophisticated, targeted, relevant, personalized email experience. And and leveraging those other channels for kind of, you know, sauce or or spice on the on the on the main dish based on customer requirements or preferences.

Garin Hobbs: I love the philosophy you outlined a moment ago. It’s you know? And and I tend to agree. Customers are gonna live and interact wherever they prefer to live and interact. So the best thing we can do is provide an experience and a touch point for them where they already are rather than forcing them to what might be for them an unnatural action to interact elsewhere.

Nicholas Einstein: Yep. Yeah. I’m with you.

Scott Cohen: And they none of them none of the channels work in a vacuum. I mean Yeah.

Garin Hobbs: It’s an ecosystem.

Scott Cohen: I mean, I’m an email guy. I’ve been ranting about how last click attribution sucks for, like, 5 years now. So

Nicholas Einstein: Right.

Scott Cohen: Just look, like, look at all the data. It doesn’t matter what the last touch is. If they’re on the list, you sent an email, you sent an SMS, they magically convert through organic search, right, or direct traffic. Odds are you’re driving that as an email or or as or if you’re sending a WhatsApp if they’re not doing everything inside of WhatsApp or everything inside of the RCS. You know, it’s people are strange, man.

People Correct. I think I said it to you yesterday, Garin. People be people link.

Garin Hobbs: People be people link.

Nicholas Einstein: I no. I like it. I like it. And and when it comes to, like, those cross, you know, you can’t you can’t fall down in any of those channels. Right?

Like, they when they see us, they’re not looking at us as different channels. They’re looking at us as us. And Yeah. And when you put a bad foot forward in any one of those areas, you can, yeah, step in step in a a a puddle.

Garin Hobbs: Yeah. Yeah. Customers customers don’t sit and look. I’m on email. Now I’m on WhatsApp now, and I’m that’s it’s for those to continue.

Right?

Scott Cohen: And you got push and in app if you have an app, and it’s just a whole thing. I mean, it’s just

Garin Hobbs: A 100%.

Scott Cohen: And us email marketers are gonna own all of those pieces. Right? We’re gonna own email. We’re gonna own SMS. We’re gonna own RCS.

We’re gonna own WhatsApp. We’re gonna own Push. Like, we should because we’re the stewards of the data, but that just means, holy crap. We have to do everything.

Nicholas Einstein: No. It’s it’s it’s true. It’s true. And, yeah, it can it can get to be a lot if it’s a bunch of different platforms where you’re where you’re trying to manage it all, which is another, I was talking to Chris Marriott, some of our friends, Marriott and Phelan, a couple of things like that.

Scott Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. We could go on for another hour, but, you know, we’ll we’ll we’ll cut it here for the sake of our audience not having 3 hours to listen to us wax nerd nerdetically poetically, nerdetically. There we go.

Garin Hobbs: Just own it. Yep.

Scott Cohen: Yeah. Well, Nick, how where can people find out more about you and about Netcore?

Nicholas Einstein: If, yeah. Certainly. Netcorecloud.com. There’s some some good information there. And, if anyone, wants to see some AMP, some of these messages in action, they can reach out to me on email, and I’m I’m happy to forward them over.

Nicholas.einstein@netcorecloud.com.

Scott Cohen: Good. Awesome. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for joining us, Nick, and thanks to you, our listeners and watchers, for tuning in. If you’d like to learn more about Inbox Army, check us out, inbox army.com.

Till next time, be safe and be well.

Garin Hobbs: Cheers all.
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