AI Subject Lines: Chris Donald in Conversation With Parry Malm

Chris Donald: Hey, everybody. This is Chris Donald with Inbox Army, and part of our thought leader in the email marketing industry interviews, we’re going to be talking with Perry Malm. He is the CEO at Phrasee, many of you have probably heard about it, if you haven’t, you’re going to now. They’re a bit of on the AI side, the artificial intelligence side, some of you have probably seen the subject lines, that they’ve been putting out. I saw the free toilet paper one the other day, thought that was brilliant.

At least here in the US, I don’t know what it’s like everywhere else. But, anyway, Perry, Perry, how are you doing?

Perry Malm: Yeah. Cool. Great to be on, Chris. Thanks.

Chris Donald: No worries. So so people don’t, you know, there’s some people that may know a little bit about your company, may know a lot, may not know much at all. So how did the idea of Phrasee come about, first of all?

Perry Malm: Yeah. So, like, back in the day, I was a brand side marketer. Like, that’s where I cut my teeth in this in this cold hard world. And like I would be sending out millions of emails and I’d be sending them out, you know, like multiple times a week trying to sell this, sell that. And like, you know, I’ve got a sort of bit of a scientific background, so I’d always say, hey, well, let’s try out a bunch of different subject lines and if one of them sticks then we’ll deploy everything else to the best one.

And, you know, we did that. You know, if you throw enough darts at the wall you’ll eventually do okay. But then I tried to build a model, right, a model going like based upon this subject line I predict it’s gonna do well, and I couldn’t build a good model. I was playing in Excel a little bit of this and that and the other. So then I got to thinking about it and it’s like it was actually a really hard problem because there’s so many factors in in language that dictate what works and what doesn’t work.

It’s not as simple as like AdWords where you just change one keyword and all of a sudden you’re a billionaire or whatever. So I basically left that brand side marketing job and I joined an an ESP. I wound up rising to be head of the customer success team. So I dealt with, you know, thousands of different marketers all around the world. And the question that they would always ask me is what’s a good subject line?

My answer was always, well, just try out a bunch of stuff and see what works. That always just felt really lame to me. It just felt like surely I can do better. So then one day, I had that light bulb moment or a moment of clarity if you will, where it’s like what if we could build a product that could answer all of those questions, that could actually not only predict what’s gonna work, but actually write the damn things instead of like asking humans to waste their time writing something as simple as a subject line. So I got together with a guy that I studied computer science with, 20 something years ago.

He’s like a PhD AI guy, and we used to do projects back in the day in college where he’d do all of the hard work, I’d shine it up, and we get a pluses. We’re kinda doing the same thing now. Us and then the 3rd founder, Victoria, the 3 of us formed Phrasee 5 and a bit years ago. And fast forward to now, like, if you get emails from, like, you know, Ebay, Groupon, Hilton, companies like that, then you’ve experienced our software without knowing us. They use us across all sorts of different marketing channels to get more opens, more clicks, and, ultimately, more conversions.

Chris Donald: Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. Like I said before, I saw the free toilet paper one, and I loved it for a couple of reasons. One, it was short.

It was topical, right on point. Lots of people are like, oh, free for toilet paper. Right? But it also that the fact that it had the word free in it, because, you know, we hear the silliness out there that you can’t put certain words in a subject line, which is really not true. Maybe, you know, free porn might have had a problem, but, or free viagra that might have an issue.

But, generally, for the word free isn’t a, you know, it used to be the spam words, right, or whatever, that don’t really exist so much anymore. But anyway, so explain how Phrasee works. How do you use it? How does how does the process go?

Perry Malm: Yeah. So, like, let’s think back in the day, right, where let’s think, you know, 10 years ago before Phrasee existed whatsoever, before this wasn’t even like an idea of mine let alone even technically possible, right? The way that things would work is if you had an email campaign set up, let’s say you’re a shoe company and you’re selling shoes at half off. You then go and write a brief to a copywriter, right? And you go, hey, I got this campaign going out, Shoes it half off.

The copywriter would then go and they’d write a few different subject lines. Then they’d they’d send them off to you. You’d put in your 2¢. Go, I I kinda preferred that one, but I might tweak it here, tweak it there. Then you show it to your coworker and they put in their 2¢.

You show it to your boss, you show it hell to the CEO, to the janitor. I mean everybody has opinions about language. And the version that you would wind up using is not the best one, like not the objectively best one, but the one that, the person with the most persuasive argument convinced you was best. So there’s a real problem there. You’re picking stuff based upon gut feeling.

Chris Donald: Yeah. It’s a gut yeah. It’s a bias almost.

Perry Malm: Yeah. Totally. It’s it’s it’s it’s all biased and we were beholden to these fancy suit wearing Don Draper types. You know, and back in the day that was fine because you didn’t need very much copy. But now that we can automate all sorts of emails, Facebook ads, push messages, AdWords, all this stuff, Don Draper was a soldier.

These days you need an army. Right?

Chris Donald: Right.

Perry Malm: So the new way of working is instead of briefing your copywriter and then injecting all of your beliefs, axioms, and mores, instead you log in to the Phrasee platform and brief the Phrasee platform. It then generates language for you that then you treat in your distribution channel of choice be it email, push, Facebook, what what have you. But what Phrasee does that’s more efficient than what a human does, first of all, is they can write faster and believe it or not more creative because humans aren’t actually as creative as we give ourselves credit for. But then secondly, it can predict which one is going to work without any of this bias. So what you get is something that can write faster and better than humans, and then predict what’s gonna work.

You marry those 2 and you get effective language in your subject lines, or your Facebook ads, push messages that make you more money.

Chris Donald: Yeah. I mean, because, yeah, you’re right. I mean, the way most people even now do it, and I’m speaking everyone whether they’re small business, midsize, you know, enterprise brand, a lot of them, do the AB testing thing. Right? Let’s get 2 subject lines and see which one does better over a 4 hour period, which is just a train wreck anyway.

Right? I mean, that was always sort of the standard test of subject lines. Right? We’re gonna do an AB test. We’re gonna use this subject line, this subject line, and we’re gonna let it run for 4 hours to, you know, 10% goes to a, 10% goes to b, and the rest goes to everybody else once the winner comes in 4 hours.

Of course, most AB testing is flawed. We actually had an interview with Kath Pay, on AB testing. So, whether that comes before this interview, we’ll see. But the problem with those is in 4 hours, the answer may be a or b. Let’s say it’s a, but in 8 hours, it’s b.

And in 24 hours, it’s a again. Right? Or where it may stay b, because it’s the length of time and actual numbers are opening, and and also people test against bad segmentation as well, so there’s that. Anyway, listen.

Perry Malm: Well, yeah. Yeah. Just just on on that point, like, there’s nothing inherently flawed with AB tests. In fact, like, I strongly believe that people should be AB testing. In fact, a through h testing is is generally what Phrasee recommends.

And due to some of the limitations of ESPs out there, you do need to set a defined time window because you can’t run a test for, like, all time. But where people are flawed in how they test is they’ll say I need to make a hypothesis. And they’ll follow this like social science based, hypothetical structure going, today I’m gonna test a long subject line versus a short subject line. And my hypothesis is that short is better. But the mistake that they’re making, right, is that they’re they’re isolating a variable, but they’re actually not isolating a variable that they can control.

Long versus short means nothing. What you’re actually testing is more information, more language versus less information and less language. Right? Or what people will will often do is they’ll say, so I’m gonna try, you know, new shoes half off or brand new shoes half off. So So it’s only this tiny little incremental difference which means that, there’s not a lot of experimental space being looked at.

Ergo your end results after 4 hours, 6 hours, 8 hours are gonna be marginal. Right? So what a more effective approach to testing is to, first of all, test out as many diverse things as possible so you can get that sort of, you know, ultimate impact. Because when you build a model, you don’t just want to test out new versus brand new. You want to test out as many diverse things as possible to build a better model.

And then secondly, don’t rely upon inexperienced humans to set what the hypothetical parameters are because what humans do is they is they create hypotheses based upon, the the sort of

Chris Donald: The outcome they the outcome they want.

Perry Malm: Yeah. And and based upon heuristics which which which they have because there’s so many components within language. We’re talking about thousands of different linguistic parameters. Humans cannot comprehend all of that. So we then, like, create these heuristics and we go, today we’re gonna be testing, you know, it’s a proposition email versus a non proposition email.

But that’s bullshit. You can’t test that out.

Chris Donald: Nope. Nope. I agree. So, you know, right now, it’s gotta be strange, and I’m sure some of these companies work with that use Phrasee are, sending COVID 19 emails. Right?

You know, what have you seen there with changes or with, you know, with, you know, companies that use that or that are looking at that type of subject line or just the engagement of that so far? Kinda what’s happening there? Do you see an increase, a decrease? Yeah. What do you see?

Perry Malm: Well, so first of all, on the topic of COVID 19, the reason why I I look dark and disheveled is because I’m in my home office that doesn’t have very good lighting and all the barbers are closed. So I I would like to assure the viewing audience that I am not a hobo. I do actually have a job and a house. But to your to your point about COVID messaging, absolutely. And this has been a real struggle.

And I think the first instinct was, like, I never knew how many CEOs there were in the world who could email me about what their COVID strategy was. That was good at first, but then everybody did it and it turned into a bit of a joke. I mean, I got a message from the CEO of a restaurant in Harlem, New York that I went to once in 2011. And I’m very happy to tell you guys that they are following a strict hygiene practice, so you’re welcome to go back anytime. It doesn’t help that you’re 5,000 miles away from my house.

You can’t travel anywhere.

Chris Donald: Right.

Perry Malm: What we found, you know, we’ve done a lot of work with our customers in the last little bit, to sort of, ensure that the language that is generated is as sensitive as possible. Because what you don’t wanna do is you don’t wanna be using these these high urgency messages right now. You don’t wanna be using these high pressure tactics because it’s just tacky and it’s it’s tacky in normal times, but it’s even tackier right now. We we found that for the 1st week or so the volume sort of dropped off, but now people are adjusting to the new normal. Business doesn’t stop.

We’re going through a cataclysmic economic and public health event, but people still need to buy stuff. So like with all crises in 2008, 2001, hell, 1920, there’s gonna be winners and losers. And brands are recognizing that, by putting their best foot forward right now, they’re gonna come out as winners.

Chris Donald: Yeah. And and I see that, and I I’ve seen some just silly COVID yeah. And I’ve gotten stuff from some place that I like a restaurant or something that I purchased one thing from many years ago, and all of a sudden, I’m included in their COVID 19 mailing. Yeah. Some of that stuff is just silliness.

A lot of them don’t even need to be sent. You know, now, I can understand some restaurants saying, hey, we are open, you know, for pickup or drive through or delivery. Right? You can’t come in, but we are still available if you want delivery. That’s kind of what I see mostly coming from restaurants.

You know, the stores that do have e commerce or saying, hey, you know, we can ship. Right? Probably delays to a point, but you can order. You know, even, Amazon is, you know, put the notice out that, you know, the same day or next day shipping may not be available because we’re taking care of emergency shipments go first. Right?

You know, things that people need, as opposed to want. Right?

Perry Malm: Well, and and we’ve also seen the rise of hyper local business. So so, like, I I live in Tooting. It’s like a neighborhood in South London in in England. Right? And, we we’ve got a supermarket nearby, but there’s always a lineup outside.

I’m like, I don’t wanna traipse around a supermarket with a bunch of people coughing on me, but there’s a local restaurant that had to shut down, but one of the guys who was involved in that restaurant, his day job is he runs the seafood counter at Selfridges in Central London. So what he’s done, he’s still got all of his, like, fishermen and wholesalers dropping stuff off to his house, then he set up shop in the restaurant and I bought some delicious scallops last week, from this hyper local stuff. So I think while while, you know, what what makes the headlines is Amazon and their, you know, huge delivery infrastructure and stuff, some of the other winners are gonna be these hyper local businesses who have adapted with pace agilely, to the new normal.

Chris Donald: Yeah. I I think that’s that’s no doubt a very true process. Right? We see it here with some of the local businesses. Right?

So the ones that the restaurants that are able are are available to stay open, are doing a much, especially the lower cost ones. So the mom and popa taco shops. Right? Things like that because, you know, some people aren’t getting paid right now. Yeah.

So, you know, they’re not gonna eat at one of the higher end chain restaurants or something like that. They’re actually getting hit worse than the cheaper restaurants are because people can afford the cheaper restaurants, and they’re trying to make their money go longer while they hope to get their next paycheck. You know, and I I think so. So what do you see the benefit of emails roll during this crisis? Right?

And and and I wanna add something to that. So I know a lot of people think of Phrasee as the subject line thing. Right? But it actually can be used for much more than that. Am I am I wrong on that?

Perry Malm: Yeah. Yeah. So so we got customers active now who use us on their website, in their apps, in their Facebook ads, their Instagram ads. There’s no real limit to what Phrasee can do aside from, us not wanting to be a a a jacks of all trades and masters of none.

Chris Donald: Right. Yeah. I think that that probably makes a lot of sense. Right? So what do you see the advantages of email, you know, in this time of crisis compared to some of the other channels maybe?

Perry Malm: Yeah. So, I think, like, one of the fundamental value drivers of email as a marketing channel is that it’s first party data, right, where you’re not beholden to monopolistic actors who charge you for reach to your audience. You think about a Facebook group. Right? You hire a social media exec, social media team and you pay them 1,000 of dollars every year to build you up this group and then all of a sudden, if you want to send a message to them, you got to pay Facebook.

The same with Google AdWords, you got to pay a tax for people to come to your website these days, right? Like you paid the Google tax. But if you have like first party data that you’ve built up, you know, aside from a relatively marginal cost of transmission, it’s effectively free. Now the problem is everybody else is doing this, and people are sending more emails more than ever because, you know, they’re they’re trying to cut marketing costs. Their variable cost is Google and Facebook, and non variable cost is your ESP, so send more more email.

So what that means is you got everybody sending more stuff, and and the volumes are going up. People’s inbox are being inundated. So the probability of any email at at events is of being opened is going down. Therefore, it’s even more critical now that you find ways and strategies for the emails you send out to to stand out. Now that’s the short term view.

The longer term view is like like I said earlier, there’s gonna be winners and losers and the recovery is gonna come. And based upon the, the depths of the dip and the velocity of the dip, the heights of the recovery and the velocity of the recovery are gonna be equally fast. Like, that’s what economic history tells us. So companies who are investing now and making sure that their digital marketing channels, especially their first party data channels are up to snuff, are the ones who are really gonna come out winners from this crisis.

Chris Donald: Yeah. I I I think you’re right, and it’s, especially, you know, if you’ve got a good engaged list, and you’re able to push your your message into their inbox. And while you always have some people that don’t open, people that do open, it’s not like some of the social channels where if they don’t happen to see it in their feet at that time, they may not see it at all anyway. Right? So, and there’s other messaging ways to go as well, but all of them are mostly more costly.

So, yeah, I think email does show its benefit. You know, same thing happened in 2008 with the market crash. Right? I started my I started inbox group, which is we have 2 brands inbox group and inbox army. I started inbox Group in late 2008, and, of course, the whole world ended.

And we we grew every year. I mean, it was it was really, really fast growth too. Right? Because companies were spending more money in email. They were looking for ways to market, and it was one of the least expensive, highest ROI ways for them to do that.

So, even though it was the end of the world as far as the economic meltdown, for us, we do well and and it’s one of those things I tell people all the time, You know, when the economy is good, email does well. When the economy is bad, email does better. It is just the way it works. Right? So, you know, what would you say are some of the best practices?

Although best practices make me crazy sometimes, but, you know, the the things marketers should be doing during these times. Right? You know, I’ll say one that that’s on my that’s been on my mind only because we’ve been doing it for almost all of our clients, and that was updating automations, because they you know, it’s a set it, forget it mentality for some. But right now is not to send a good time to send that email. Hey, we miss you.

Well, of course you do. Right?

Perry Malm: Yeah. Yeah. Because I’ve because I’ve been in ICU for the last 2 weeks. That’s why you miss me. Right?

Like,

Chris Donald: it’s crazy. When I when you talk about subject lines before, I I tell people this all the time. I cannot wait for the first company because when you say we miss you, what what you’re really saying is we miss your money. Right? I mean so I’m waiting for someone to say, we miss your money.

Come on back, Trey.

Perry Malm: That’s not bad actually. Geez. It’s going to take a brand with some courage to actually try that out. But no, I do agree with you with the phrase best practice because usually best practice is given by non practitioners who are not the best at what they do, So the term itself doesn’t mean too much. But, like, from from what I’ve seen is, like, like, yeah, things suck right now, but you shouldn’t stop marketing.

You should apply, human driven filters to how you’re I think you’re absolutely right with like automation programs. I think if anything else, this shows how well automation a few years ago seemed like the panacea to all of marketing’s troubles. When the shit hits the fan, it doesn’t look so good after all. Right? But I think now for sort of counter cyclical brands, so your supermarkets, your drug stores, utilities, I mean, there’s no reason to stop marketing.

And also for for ecommerce brands, there’s even less reason to stop marketing. Like like, I mean, I think I read how every American is getting a $1200 check is like a sort of like stay afloat check as part of the bailout package, they’re gonna spend that money. Like like that money that money is gonna get cycled into the economy very, very quickly. That’s the nature of universal basic incomes. Therefore, you want your brand to be top of mind so that when people are gonna cycle that $1200 into the market, you get some wallet share and not your competition.

Chris Donald: Yep. No, I completely agree. Because we’ve had some clients come to us and say, hey, we wanna stop everything for a while, and I’m going, but you can’t. Right? It doesn’t make sense.

I mean, first of all, you want to let them know that you’re alive because you are still up for business. Right? Yes, because you’re in the travel industry, you know, this might not be a good time, but, you know, you need to touch your list to keep it alive, engaged, cleaned up. Right? I mean, just let them know you’re alive and you’re still here for them when they’re ready.

You may give them, some other information. Right? It may, you know, it may be time to, you know, do some other type of messaging that isn’t sales. Right? So community, you know, things like there’s something that you can connect with.

Right? And it doesn’t have to be a lot. Once every couple of weeks, even 2, 3 weeks is fine. But to go from sending 3 times a week to nothing and stopping for 2 months in a row makes no sense at all. Right?

Perry Malm: Totally. Yeah. Like like like, we’ve not stopped doing our marketing whatsoever. I mean, we have a weekly newsletter that goes out, normally every Thursday at, at, 2 o’clock Dallas time, actually. And we even sent out an April fools one because as long as you’re tactful and as long as you’re just not being stupid, then, like, first of all, people need a laugh right now more than ever.

It’s an incredibly stressful time and it’s a ubiquitously stressful time where everybody is equally stressed out. So if we can’t have a bit of a laugh and, like, lighten the mood a little bit, then what are we doing here? Right?

Chris Donald: Yep. Yeah. You know, like, you know, some of the memes you see that are funny is people, you know, before before having to stay at home and, you know, it’s really skinny, and then after staying home for 3 weeks and now they’re fat. Right?

Perry Malm: Well, I’ve I’ve fortunately lost I’ve fortunately lost weight because, part of this sort of working culture in in Britain is, you know, on Thursdays Fridays after work you pop to the pub and knock knock back a couple of pints of lager. Well, I’ve knocked that right on the edge. Now I I haven’t had had a drink for a couple of weeks now, so I’ve shut off about 10 kilos or something. Oh, there you go. I’m fighting for them now.

Let’s go send some emails, man.

Chris Donald: Very good. Very good. Yeah. It’s funny. It’s because, you know, as human beings, we’re creatures of habit.

Right? So we like to do things in a certain way. We kinda get in our normal process, right, of we go to work, we may stop for coffee at a certain place every morning. You know, there there is comfort in repetition. Right?

And I think that’s one of the biggest things is it changed all of our comfort. Right? All the things that made life easy for us. Us. We knew what we were gonna do.

We knew how things were gonna go. We might not know the work we were gonna do that day, but we knew how we were gonna get up and get to work and and stop and eat, you know, all the basic stuff that happened with during a day. And now there’s none of that. Right? And it’s also, you know, for me so working from home, my biggest problem was my grandson.

So my wife takes care of my grandson here at my house and he’s 5 years old and it’s really hard not to wanna play with him during the day. Right? And he asked, you know, he asked me too. Grandpa, can you play with me for a few minutes? And I’m like, oh, dude.

I can’t. I’m sorry. Right? So that’s extremely difficult.

Perry Malm: Yeah. My, son Axel, he’s or just about 9 months old. Right? So he’s just starting to get to that age where he sort of interacts with you and stuff. But then, I mean, like like, I mean, I’ve got, you know, 50 odd mouths to feed, multimillions in in customer revenue to maintain and make sure our service is going.

So so, like like, I found it it helpful just to have my little office room where I can close the door, and if the door is closed, it’s like, do not bother me. But when the door is open, you know, it seems that every time the door is open I got to change his diaper, but that’s just bad luck, I figured.

Chris Donald: She might be saving them for you. You never know. Yeah. Alright. You know, we are close to coming up to 30 minutes.

We try to keep this to 30 minutes. So let’s let’s talk a little bit about, so what do you see happening, on the other side of this? Right? So what’s going to emerge post pandemic? Right?

As far as the marketing and the email and the and the ramp up to being normal, let’s say, whatever that is. Right?

Perry Malm: Yeah. Well, I I spend a lot of time, in my, you know, spare time looking at sort of macroeconomic trends. Right? And in 2,008, what happened is we came out of the downturn and it was the baby boomers who spent their way out, right, because they, you know, weren’t as hit quite as hard. Right.

Now I think it’s gonna be different, where a lot of the people who have lost jobs, you know, the 3,300,000 in the US, 1,000,000 in the UK was just announced yesterday. That’s a lot of unemployed people, but but a lot of them were from, you know, the restaurant industry, barbershops, hairdressers, flight attendants, things like that, like, things that can come back to life very, very quickly. And the and a lot of those those people who have been made unfortunately unemployed are from a younger generation. So when they come back, they’re gonna be spending, they’re gonna put money back into the consumer economy for these sort of fast moving goods, right? So it’s gonna be like makeup companies, it’s gonna be maybe even travel companies, it’s gonna be like all of these things which you can buy which aren’t mega expensive but which brings sort of, you know, comfort in in being allowed outside again.

So so I think when the recovery comes, ecommerce brands are gonna have a hell of a good time because they’re gonna find that all of this sort of deferred spending is going to come at once. My big prediction is that the Christmas season this year is going to be the biggest on record.

Chris Donald: Oh, you know, I think you’re probably right there. Right. But I also think that you’re going to see well, I think the ecommerce brands are going to kick butt. No doubt. I actually think you’re gonna see people going out and shopping because they can go out.

Right? I think that whole thing of going out and doing things, and and I think restaurants are gonna benefit, because people are gonna wanna go out to eat, They’re gonna wanna meet with friends. Hey. Let’s go have dinner. Right?

Let because they haven’t seen them in 3 months or 4 months or whatever this ends up being. Right? And, yeah, the unemployment number one of the numbers I saw today was something like 6,200,000 filed for unemployment just like this week, this past week.

Perry Malm: Unfathomable, Oh,

Chris Donald: it’s unbelievable. Right? So, you know, we’re lucky, as you guys are that we can still run our company, let our people work from home. You know, we’re kind of blessed in that respect. Right?

A lot of us in this industry are. Whereas, you know, others are just not that lucky. Right? Well,

Perry Malm: and and one big outcome from this is people are gonna remember how companies acted during this time, not just to their customers, but to their employees. So there there are a couple of brands in the UK, I’m not gonna name and shame, but who elected to not take up any of the government wage subsidies which were offered to prevent job losses and therefore, let a whole bunch of people go unemployed. And you just think, like like like like, these are sort of name brands. One’s a pub chain, right, which has a pub in every town in Britain. Some people will go back to it, but it’s gonna leave a bitter taste.

And I think like the reputational damage of companies just being jerks during this most perplexing, bizarre, scary of times are gonna be expensive, and I say good riddance to bad rubbish.

Chris Donald: Yeah. You know, we I had that same experience, so I was supposed to speak over at the inbox expo that was gonna happen. When was it? It was in, this March. Right?

It was just a little while ago. And, you know, because of this, couldn’t go. Right? So I contacted the hotel. American Airlines was nice enough to they offered me a refund, or a credit.

If I took a refund, there was, like, I would get $200 less than if I took a credit, I got the whole credit, and the credit could be used within 12 months, unless, you know, something crazy really happened. Right? So I took the credit, right, because I know I’ve got other conferences to go to and all that. But the hotel over in, not too far from, which was over the London Bridge area, They said, sorry, no free refund, that’s what our policy says. Right?

And I’m going, really? And and they did have a force majeure in their terms of service. Right? So that’s the way I ended up attacking them Yeah. When, you know, both countries basically shut down.

Right? I said, even if I could fly to UK, I can’t come back.

Perry Malm: Yeah.

Chris Donald: And now and now I can’t even fly. Now, I can’t even go there anymore. So they did eventually give a refund, but the decision of telling people what they told in the beginning and for that month, you know, with 4 weeks almost, right, of gesture, and not really even good messaging back. Right? You know, well, when you bought this, you knew it was non refundable.

That was one answer. Really?

Perry Malm: Well, I like like like like I mean, I think companies throughout the world, I mean, we we we go through quite sort of long and drawn out commercial processes because we deal with, you know, some some big clients and whatnot. And, it I think the world has learned more about, what force majeure means and what its actual sort of legal limitations actually are in the last months than ever before in the history of the common law system. Yep.

Chris Donald: Well, it’s really funny too because one of the ones I was dealing with that was not being good about refunding is they did have that force majeure option in there, so which is really what happened here. Right? I mean, that’s a perfect example. Right? It can’t they can’t fulfill what I bought from them, right, because of this.

And and so I I, you know, I had saved a copy of their terms of service and that so that so I could look through it offline if I needed to. So when I went back and looked, they had removed the force majeure.

Perry Malm: Class

Chris Donald: Oh, geez. Really? But anyway, okay. So look, I I appreciate your time today. I know we this wasn’t all crazy, and it really wasn’t supposed to be.

But anybody who has any, any questions about Phrasee, go to their site. It’s phrasee.c0. Perry is more than happy to talk to anybody. I’ll give out his, personal cell phone number later. My we’ll give him Toby’s number.

No. My case.

Perry Malm: Yeah.

Chris Donald: Beauty. Anyway, sorry, guys. You didn’t hear the beginning of our conversation, but Toby’s a friend of ours anyway. Yeah. I appreciate your time.

Thanks for, you know, having time to do this. And and like we both said, apologize. I’ve you’ve having to look at my Red Sox logo because I’m at home. He’s at home. I do actually have pants on today, which is relatively rare.

Perry Malm: I don’t, but I’m thinking I might get a Vancouver Canucks logo right up there.

Chris Donald: There you go. There you go. There you go. Alright. Perry, listen, I appreciate your time.

Thank you for being here. And, we will have a little, when we do the post production of the exit, we’ll have, the web address for Frazee and all that.

Perry Malm: Oh, cool.

Chris Donald: Alright. There you

Perry Malm: go, man. Cool. Cool, man. Good to catch up. Take it easy and stay safe and all that, bud.

Chris Donald: You too. And everybody else, stay safe out there, stay home, do what you’re supposed to do, and we’ll get through this. Thank you.